ideas for new concepts in terrain..

[plunkitron]

how about 3d fractalized terrain, right now we basically have a 2d terrain because it only goes up/down, now this will probably be enough for most people. but i think it would be neat if it could also go left/right .. this would make it so you could generate things like caves or even more fantastic things like neuron connected to neuron looking levels .. it would basically make interesting 3d fractal shapes that we would play on as opposed to just a flat terrain..

[plunkitron]

http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcarticles.cgi?show=65018

this is an example of what i am talking about..

[uphu]

A lot of that can be done with static objects.

For instance, the map cavern in T:V. I don't even know how they did that.

[ARStrike]

Torque Shader Engine, the game engine on which this game is made, allows multiple terrain blocks at any angle. That's enough to make cave maps, and the details can be added using static objects. The volume instead of heightfield thing would make client side maps much bigger, and map packs would be really frustrating to download.

[-CPL-]

i dont understand what the point of the post is.

In all tribes games so far, you can go in almost any direction, just cant turn your player model upside down.

You can go left. right. fwd. back. up. down with jet packs and skiing.\terrain features.

this image from the site, looks exactly like maps i have played in the past.

http://www.xinix.org/sven/image.big.019.jpg

[plunkitron]

multiple terrain are still 2d planes they cannot creates 3d Shapes like this does, this method uses 64 x 64 x 64 voxel boxes scaled differently and then it uses iso surfaces to smooth out the blocks into blobs, 2d heightmapped terrains cannot make shapes like this.

furthermore volume instead of heightfield differences wouldnt change the size at all, its not like they create more data , your cpu simply processes a more complicated scene so it might require slightly more processor from cpu. but the size is negligble since the real thing that would make a map bigger is more data to download .. and multifractal vs fractal is not going to add that much to a map .. what adds more to a map is things like multiple entities .. or say multiple tererain blocks since those are 2 seperate sets of data, also more static entities will make a map bigger in file size.

so actually this solution would probably be a better solution than the hacks the rest of you proposed .. the only thing to really stop this is simply the dev team not being able to figure it out ..

[plunkitron]

i doubt this , for one thing you should check out a few more of the pictures or even try the demo out. this particular map for instance is more like the negative space in between soap bubbles .. or in other words the negative space of this map is more like soap bubbles ..

multifractal shapes are very versatile so this could add to map functionality .. you can even use them in the time dimension to make maps that change ..

keep in mind a fractal is a small equation , check out mojo world it creates whole planets in 90kb.

i dont understand what the point of the post is.

In all tribes games so far, you can go in almost any direction, just cant turn your player model upside down.

You can go left. right. fwd. back. up. down with jet packs and skiing.\terrain features.

this image from the site, looks exactly like maps i have played in the past.

http://www.xinix.org/sven/image.big.019.jpg

[LexXx]

Can we also have massive jumps/cliffs so people who like me who luv to just take a vehical and "jump" can erm.... jump??? lolz. See a flying Wildcat in T2??? probs me :p

on a more serious note.... ever thought of making something like a maze. It would be entirely closed with little or no exterior [e.g. grass, trees] in it. It would just be a pure interior map wif barrels, boxes and those odd machine parts.


- Map big Enuf for planes to comfortably fly
- Map small enuf so that planes can't realli fly away to outrun rockets. However, the tight/shape turns on the maze means that if an inexperienced pilot was to fly it, he/she would prob crash it.
- Quick/sharp turns help conceal defensive items such as turrets and mines or even that odd motion sensor for cloaked people [or the snatchel charge.... ;) ]. However, turrets would have a limited angle of fire.
- Rockets can be slightly easier to dodge if its chasing you around corners [well, maybe]. Therefore, AA would work betta for dis map.
- Snipers would have sufficient amounts of "high ground" and hidden but well sighted spots. However, these spots would have to be tight with little space to move or escape. Kinda like a one way narrow street, make those damm snipers fight their way out.
- Flags would be place on the outer side of the "base" but have sufficient amount of turrets to defend it.
- Prob 3-4 turrets, 1-2 to defend the entrance(s) leading to the base, 1 protecting flag and 1 protecting base. This excludes the deployables.

I can't think of any more things to put in. Any problems or critic you find in my idea, post it and ill try n answer.... if theres no answer to tat question... well too bad :p :D

[SgtFlame]

I like the cave idea. Shouldn't be too difficult to make with TSE.

The problem is that the purely generated terrains in Torque aren't that great and they generally require touching up, which adds to the size of the terrain file... sometimes by a significant amount.

I'll look into the existing generators and see what can be done with them to help facilitate the creation of caves.

Hrm... a cave would be a sweet place to hide an easter egg.

[plunkitron]

just incase you guys missed it on the page here is the link to the description of the idea..

http://www.xinix.org/sven/hvox.techinfo.html

>I like the cave idea. Shouldn't be too difficult to make with TSE.

>The problem is that the purely generated terrains in Torque aren't that great and they generally require >touching up, which adds to the size of the terrain file... sometimes by a significant amount.

>I'll look into the existing generators and see what can be done with them to help facilitate the creation of >caves.

>Hrm... a cave would be a sweet place to hide an easter egg.

this is a very good point, and was one reason why i pointed out this terrain creating method becaues if you try the demo although its really slow due to all the per pixel stuff and alphaness of the demo you immediately see how much more interesting the terrain becomes. and since its voxelvolumes with a mesh wrapped around.. it can be made to go up / down side to side whatever it doesnt matter.

although im sure even this type of terrain wont be perfect for every circumstance, mappers will still want to add certain nooks and crannies.

although what about other types of algorithims that could compress map data? Im not exactly sure how torque keeps tracks of the difference that a mapper creates when changing up the terrain map ( does it simply do a dif and whatever coordinates are different it stores that data raw?). Maybe you could use a genetic algorithim to find the smallest way to express the difference?

otoh your going to run into this problem irregardless of whether you use voxelvolumes or simple heightmaps ..


again voxelvolumes may be to much to add into torque but i think it is the most elegant choice for being able to add things like caves and exotic terrain. have you ever tried to make a cave in torque as it currently is ? I used to mess around with the map editor a lot in torque and ive made some pretty crazy stuff like caves and such but it was such a pain in the ass and in took hourse and it was such an unelegant duck tape of a hack basically i would just cut a hole out of the ground raise the terrain a bit so the hole was near vertical instead of horizontal and then just start builidng in with rock models and such .. it was such a pain in the ass you have no idea. something like this would be great because the terrain brush editor could easily create caves because you would just be deleting voxel volume boxes.

one neat map idea i had though was a map where there was a massive and central volcano type hill with a giant rock mound in the center inside of the rock mound was a base that went into the void , in the void there were platforms that you could travers to the enemy's flag and because in torque if your underneath the map you can pass through the terrain like a ghost .. so after traversing the platforms in the void you could get to the flag completely untouched .. it was cool because then that central void point becomes a main objective without really being an objective because it is such an advantage..

it was cool but it ran like hell and because i had to resize all the different models there bounding boxes were all fucked ..

anyways im rambling now..


Lexx :
the voxelvolume can make exactly what your talking about in terms of cliffs,

i also like your map idea it makes me think of a 3d junkyard map where everything is made of random spare parts of stuff to create a 3d like maze .. that would be pretty neat if someone made that. if i had a better computer i would fire up torque and start to try that idea out..

[plunkitron]

OH BTW , this is a link to the tech demo that all the screenshots came from

beware you need a really nice machine to run this 2.0 ghz and a nice card =/ (cause of all the per pixel stuffs and alpha versioness)

http://www.xinix.org/sven/Hvox.Demo.zip

[LexXx]

Lexx :
the voxelvolume can make exactly what your talking about in terms of cliffs,

i also like your map idea it makes me think of a 3d junkyard map where everything is made of random spare parts of stuff to create a 3d like maze .. that would be pretty neat if someone made that. if i had a better computer i would fire up torque and start to try that idea out..

Yess!!!!
My idea has been noted and may be used :D :D :p

[Calsa]

Caves, Junkyards, whathaveyou can all be made with multiple terrain layers and or meshes. I fail to see the point in ripping out the brand new TSE terrain system and replaceing it, when we can do the exact same thing without replaceing the entire terrain system.

[Adept]

thats because you fail to understand these technical issues.

[plunkitron]

im not saying ripping the terrain system out , im saying add a volumetric system too. the terrain system is just one of the many parts of the level design.

and what im trying to explain is that this method provides a new way of making terrain that is faarrrrr easier to manipulate, and also gives rise to more variety in terrain.

the one caveat that i admit is that you would probably need an engine coder to add this new functionality.. and i dont know if you have this or if you have one that can do this.

you are right that it *could* be done in the existing editor but in order to make some of the levels in the tech demo (posted link above) you would basically have to model it and export it as a massive model file .

caves are also a pain in the ass in this same respect because a true cave is 3 dimensional .. this is something that you CANNOT do with two heightfeilds connected together.. so in order to make 3d dimensionality you have to superimpose many different heightfields and different heights,scales and altitudes to give an illusion of a 3d tunnel. as someone who has used the torque level editor i can attest to the ease that voxel volumes covered with a mesh would add to the level editing process. the method of using multiple heightfeild terrains is a hack that will cause infinite headaches for you in particular since you are the lead level designer.

ofcourse we can stick to the tried and true method, but then why make a new game? just keep playing t2 and t1 if thats what you want.

Caves, Junkyards, whathaveyou can all be made with multiple terrain layers and or meshes. I fail to see the point in ripping out the brand new TSE terrain system and replaceing it, when we can do the exact same thing without replaceing the entire terrain system.